Barbara: Hi, SallyAnn. I’m so excited you’re here with me today. As you know, we’re talking about how we connected, and it’s part of my celebration of 13 years in business and having chats with the people who were important and influential in getting Wild Blackberry Studio where we are today. So glad to have you.

SallyAnn: Thank you.

Barbara: We met in an online business course sort of 2018 probably and ended up making it real over a lobster roll somewhere in Maine between Portland and where I was staying in Emden. And I’m just curious what you remember about that first time we actually sat across from each other.

SallyAnn: What I remember the most other than it was beautiful weather, it was gorgeous. I remember being so touched that you took time out of your vacation to see me in real life. You only went to Maine once a year and if that, you know, if you’re lucky, to take time away from your family, away from your vacation to see me it was really touching and I knew that our connection was real and it was really nice to be able to give you a hug after only seeing you through the computer for like a year.

Barbara: Thank you. It was an opportunity that I wasn’t going to miss, you know? Like, our connection was, I don’t know, it just felt so nice and was so fresh, and I was like, “How am I going to be in Maine, which is as close as I’m going to get, and not say hi to this person that I like so much?” So I’m glad that we were able to pull that off.

SallyAnn: Me too.

Barbara: I think you were the one who brought our first collaboration together. What made you think we’d be a good team?

SallyAnn: I had been looking for a project for us to work together on since we started connecting. And made a real effort to try to get to know you which is hard to do when you don’t live in the same town. Like, typically, if I met someone through a course or something and lived in the same town, I would be like, “Let’s go to coffee.” Because how are you going to know if you have a real connection unless you spend some time with someone? We started doing virtual coffee, and just making that happen. And so I had been looking for projects for you and I to collaborate on. I knew our skill sets were really complementary and our ethos were so similar. So I was excited to find a time that we could work together. And then once you work with someone once, like, you know if you work together well. It’s kind of like traveling with someone. Even if you like someone or have a great relationship, not everyone’s meant to travel together, and not everyone’s meant to work together either. Yeah, it went just the way that I expected, and then I continued to look for ways that we could work together.

Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, thank you. I mean, your willingness to collaborate and the kinds of projects that you brought really helped shape the way I look at both collaboration and the kinds of people that I wanted to work with. You know? Up until that point, I had been saying yes to just a lot of anything to get the experience, to get the revenue, and working with the kinds of clients that you brought to our collaborations helped me get really clear about who it is that I most resonate with and most want to work with. So a really important formative  thing you did for me there.

Barbara: So you’re a digital marketer and writer, and I’m a designer and brand strategist, and looking back, how did our zones of expertise fit together in practice? I think you anticipated that question a little bit, but let’s visit it again.

SallyAnn: Sure. So I think that a good project requires good content and great visuals. And I learned that like me, you also feel like design should be copy-led. And they need to work together. They can’t work separately. I mean, maybe they could, but it’s not preferred. I think it’s better when it’s together. So I could tell once we started working together that we did have that collaboration and that we saw things similarly.

Barbara: We landed a Davey Award for our work on Vessel Services. What does recognition like that mean to you when it comes to collaboration?

SallyAnn: I knew the work was great. I was super proud of where we landed, and so proud of every version that you made, it was so good. And that’s the hard thing about client work is that you’re working with a lot of different people. You have a lot of different stakeholders. And so sometimes the final product isn’t what you would have chosen, and that can be so hard. And it’s also just part of the deal. But when I work with you, I’m always happy with the outcome, and it is definitely nice to get that external validation that other people agree. So I knew the work was great, but it felt amazing to have other people agree with that.

Barbara: Yeah, I still remember that particular logo effort and all the different things that we tried, and I would say to this day that logo is still one of my absolute favorites. And even though it wasn’t originally the one that I necessarily loved the best, it certainly ended up being the right one for them, you know? And some of those other themes still come up in other projects. But yeah, it really was a standout, I think, project for a long time.

SallyAnn: It was fun, and that was really an evolution from the beginning to where it landed. I mean, there’s always lots of versions, but it is neat to kind of see something be birthed like that.

Barbara: You introduced me to a whole little community of clients up in Maine. And so I’m curious what you think referral and connection actually require between colleagues for it to work the way that it did for us.

SallyAnn: So much of business is about referrals, and word of mouth, and people work with people they like. And I liked working with you, and I brought you along any time I could, and my clients liked working with you. And it can be as simple as that. Even though the work that we were doing, lots of it was business-to-business, some of it was business-to-consumer, and the truth is, we’re just all a bunch of people. And so it’s kinda people-to-people. Being authentic, being reliable, being competent, and easy to work with, that’s what people like, and you and I both bring that. And so my clients saw it, and they trusted you as much as they trusted me.

Barbara:  Thank you. And I think that’s really true. I think that we both developed a level of trust in each other’s competence, that we knew that we could bring each other into something without… Like I never felt the need to have any kind of super handholding control. You know, I knew like Sal’s just going to do her part and it’s going to be awesome, and that’s all I need to know.

SallyAnn: Yeah, and that is trust. And it doesn’t necessarily come easy. But when it’s earned it makes it so much easier. It makes it easier to know that you have my back, we have each other’s back. And I just… It helps you sleep better at night, you know?

Barbara: Yeah, it does. You pointed to our regular coffee chats. We had those for a long time. It was you, me, and Monique for a good while. Just showing up as people and women business owners and comparing notes and commiserating about life and business. Let me rephrase this question. What did that kind of ongoing connection give you that regular networking did not? Or is that just not applicable?

SallyAnn: Regular networking makes me anxious. Strangers scare me sometimes. Sorry, not sorry. So walking into a room full of people that I don’t know, so like a typical networking idea, makes me anxious. But there’s such a level of comfort with you two,  that builds over time. But we just… I learned so much from you two in those chats, and I was able to share frustrations, challenges, issues and I knew that I could either just be heard, and I could also get really great advice. And the things that we have in common were really helpful. I didn’t have such a close network of other women who were self-employed, and the closeness is what helped. I did know other, and I do know other women who work for themselves. It is really fantastic to be able to openly and honestly share those struggles, because there are struggles. There are hard days and weeks and sometimes in business, you have to project that everything’s going great. You know? Your clients need to believe that everything’s going great. Again, there’s trust there. And so to have a safe place to be able to share, and yeah, we often weren’t even talking about business, but like it’s all related. So oh, it was so helpful, so helpful. And I learned a lot, and I felt really cared for, and it just was so nice.

Barbara: Yeah. I think that reflects how I feel about it, too. You know, like the difference between showing up to a community, even a small one where you’re known, and where you don’t have to perform okayness or hyper-competency. Whereas when you go into a networking event, you have to be on, you have to be polished, you have to convince people of your competence, right? Like, it’s just… There’s so much about it that’s kind of gross, honestly. You know? That’s not how I want to connect with people and figure out whether or not I want to work with them. Whereas, like you said, in our group, our knowing of each other evolved over time. We knew that it was totally acceptable to come in and be like, “I am having a shit time, guys.”

SallyAnn: Well, and networking is primarily first impressions. And first impressions, you do want to come off as a competent, confident professional, whatever that means. So it doesn’t allow a lot of deeper connection, I think. And we just didn’t have to do that with each other anymore.

Barbara: Right. Yeah. Pretty good stuff. So you now work inside a nonprofit, which is a real shift from running your own shop. What surprised you most about that transition?

SallyAnn: Oh my gosh. Okay. The level of peopling that I’m doing. So I worked remotely, which meant I worked from home for 13 years. And so you’re often in your jammies. You’re gym hair don’t care. And, you know, a lot of those casual things, which are really great. You know? Now I’m going into an office with other humans and dogs. Yay. No, it’s so great. But now I’m going into an office five days a week, and so the amount of peopling is hugely different. So that has been one of the biggest adjustments. It’s kind of crazy.

Barbara: Yeah, that I cannot imagine at this point having to prepare myself to be business casual five days a week and then be around more than three people at a time. Ruined for that forever, I think.  I probably would adjust and, you know, maybe prioritize sleep and downtime and quiet time.

SallyAnn: Which actually, yes, I have been prioritizing sleep, rest, downtime, because I used to get a lot more alone time. And I’m just learning things about myself. I’m always learning things about myself. And yeah, knowing that I really value alone time, like, big time.

Barbara: Yeah. So Chin Hairs and F-Bombs is a whole thing, your podcast. Where did that come from, and what do you want it to do in the world?

SallyAnn: Okay. My podcast, Chin Hairs and F-Bombs, came out of sitting with good girlfriends and sharing and not feeling alone in struggles, and always coming away smarter and stronger. And I felt like other people would like to hear some of the things that I was talking about with my girlfriends because I wanted to hear other people talk about it. And one of the biggest reasons why I do it is to help others not feel so alone. Because I have, in the past, sat with my own struggles and felt really alone if I didn’t share them and felt like the only one who feels this way, I’m the only one struggling with this, and it isn’t usually true. But when I share with someone else and am seen and reflected and they’re like, “Oh my God, me too,” that’s healing. And so I wanted to share that feeling of understanding, of simpatico, and really for me it’s about not being alone in your struggles.

Barbara: Where can people find this if they want to listen?

SallyAnn: Anywhere they get their podcasts. So, Spotify or iTunes, that’s where you’ll find it.

Barbara: You have been a real anchor for me in some hard stretches, and in support of some fun travel too. What do you think being a good colleague actually looks like when someone you care about is going through it?

SallyAnn:  I think a good colleague is someone who actually cares about you in all facets, so not just work output, but as a human. I’ve definitely been in workplaces where I did not feel cared for, like my humanity. And I don’t know. You can’t fake that. Right. And health, it is important. Emotional health is important. And if… I mean, we all go through things at different times in our life, it’s really hard to function and be productive—thanks capitalism—when we’re feeling something big. Yeah. So I just care about people as people, and I care about you as a person, number one, before I care about your output. Yeah. So I think that’s what makes a good colleague.

Barbara: Awesome. Thank you. We’re learning how to stay connected now that the regular rhythm has changed, and I’d love to hear what you think. Like, what does long-term friendship between business owners and friends need to survive the kind of transition that we’re experiencing right now?

SallyAnn: Yeah. I think it’s helpful—I’m talking to me right now—I think it’s helpful to remember that there are seasons in life and in relationships. There are chapters and that things can change, and that’s not necessarily bad. There is often grief with change because you’re ending something and you’re starting something else, but that ending part has grief. And so I do grieve our lovely every other Thursday coffee talk, virtual coffee. And I also know that connection is stronger than Google Calendar. So we’re gonna make it through. We’re gonna find other ways to connect and you know those relationships where when you come together, no matter how much time has passed, it feels like no time has passed. And I have that with you, so I’m not worried about it.

Barbara: Awesome. Well, thank you. Was lovely chatting with you.